TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

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Posts: 487
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by lindsay_g »

'Tis I again, possibly creating more debate, this time over a handbrake.

Back in 14/11/2017, David John questioned whether there was a handbrake on the other side of the vehicle from the photo, but unfortunately it went answered. And unfortunately for those with completed models I think he was correct to raise the question. Virtually all, or perhaps all, NPCS vehicles had handbrakes and so why should this CCT be any different? So I've been contemplating this recently. Earlier tonight I acquired a side elevation of the GA drawing of the CCT. Part of the same drawing was posted previously but if the lower portion had been included we'd have seen this :

CCT drawing.jpg
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There is obviously a bracket shown for the brake lever. Might the plan view from the same drawing provide more info - I doubt it based on plan views of other wagons. Interestingly John Boyle on his etch for the earlier panelled version of this CCT has included a bracket in similar position to that on this later drawing - methinks I need to look at RHP70055 (thanks to Mike Williams for the direction) in Register House to see what is shown but I reckon it will look much like the later drawing. I doubt reference to Drawing No 6453 mentioned on the attached drawing will help as it probably concentrates on the relationship between the vacuum and Westinghouse items. So, where to look next?

I looked at the plans for the Dia 8 horsebox in the Wagon Book, but like the CCT drawing it only shows the bracket. However, I recently built a LRM model of that horsebox, and a handbrake was part of the kit, with a diagram showing how everything fitted together, part of which is below :

Horsebox diagram.jpg
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The diagram shows the bracket and part of the lever (B) with the link end (A) connecting to the brake yoke. Assuming I've interpreted that correctly, then this is the result on the model :

Horsebox 3.jpg
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Unfortunately, I'm doubting whether the placement of the other brake units on the diagram were correct as I had to crank the link around the vacuum tank, but that's a side issue. Again, looking back at the parts on the John Boyle etch, there is indeed a handbrake lever and guard, plus 2 other items that would make up part A in the LRM diagram. Did both find this set-up independently or did one follow the logic of the other? Back to David John's question - was there a lever on the other side of the photo, and so back again on to Filemaker and a study of the images there. In the same image of CCT No 9 that was shown previously, this can be seen :

CCT poss lever.jpg
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In my opinion, the L shape items on the far side of the vehicle can only be the links from lever to brake shoe/yoke, I can't see there are any other items below the solebars other than them. What would help corroborate this further is if we can get a good blow up of the handbrake links of the Fish, Fruit and Milk in Filemaker (Image Ref W80) which I think is as good as we might get presently.

Just as an aside, and something to cause even more debate, it is interesting to note the different livery colours of the FF&M and CCT in that last image :

Livery comparison.jpg
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And, if you are still awake, one last question - does anyone have the instructions for the John Boyle/Decent Models CCT? I don't need them to build the model but it would be interesting to see what is covered in them and adds anything to this topic.

Alan K
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Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Alan K »

I think Lindsay has got it spot on. The L-shaped lever which can be seen in the photo of no.9 is the critical identifier in my opinion.
Here is an extract of the John Boyle drawing of the Dia 39 Fish Fruit & Milk van with the handbrake items clearly shown
IMG_20240503_0002-1 JB.pdf
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(Sorry but I can't find a way to show this in landscape!)
The L-shaped item is in orange, the lever in green, held in place by the brake lever guide in purple.
The known photos of No.9 and No. 28 have both been taken with this lever on the side away from the camera.

Posts: 587
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:12 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck


Blow-up of W80 as requested.


W80 crop.jpg
W80 crop.jpg (30.58 KiB) Viewed 545 times
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Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by lindsay_g »

Thanks for that image, Mike.

I think that shows conclusively that the handbrake lever was attached to the brake shoe via a link suspended from a bracket. It seems that the link is bolted to the brake shoe via the lower bolt hole.

I've requested access to RHP70055 which is a GA drawing of the earlier panelled version of the Dia 11A CCT and will report on anything additional that it might reveal. Unfortunately I cannot post a copy of any image that I get from the National Records without requesting special permission from them which may come at a cost.


Dave John
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Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:42 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Dave John »

Interesting research. Another one for the to-do list.
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Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by lindsay_g »

I paid a visit to Register House today to study the newly digitised drawing of the earlier version of the CCT and gleaned the following info. The same info may be on the drawing of the later drawing of the louvered CCT version, the subject of this thread, but only small portions of that drawing have appeared earlier on this thread. It's possibly safe to presume the details as outlined below would be the same on both versions of the CCT unless we are told otherwise.

Virtually no brake detail is present on the drawing. There is a note which reads "For arrangement of W'house, vacuum and handbrakes. See drawing No.... ". Handily no drawing number is recorded but presumably this would be 6453 as recorded on the later drawing - but this drawing doesn't seem to have survived.

The bracket for the handbrake on the solebar (on both drawings) is centred 5.5" to the left of mid point of the body side. The handbrake guard is centred 10.5" out from the centre of the right wheel (i.e still within the span of the W iron).

So, that's it as far as brake details are concerned.

Moving to lamp irons, if fitted in the normal position on the drawbeams they'd have impeded door opening. The drawing shows these were bolted to the lower half of the drawbeam, 1' 6" L and R of centre. (Safety chains were 1' L & R of centre).

The lamp irons fitted to the right end of the sides were 3' 10" from the bottom of the body to their mid point.

As regards the steps on the buffers no dimensions are given but they are drawn as wide as the thinnest part of the buffer (just rear of the outer end).

For those with a Decent Models etch of the earlier version secreted away, without going over everything with a Vernier, the etch seems to be a good representation based on the drawings. Reassuringly both that and the TLM bodies have the same dimensions. Unfortunately, there were no details or position of any door handles on the drawing so we're on our own there!

Methinks I have no excuse for not cracking on with the build of either model now! Then I'll worry over livery and placement of initials, vehicle number, etc..

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