Van and wagon drawings

Any aspect related to the prototype stock.
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Mike 1
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Van and wagon drawings

Post by Mike 1 »

Thought this might be of interest. Its a D3 covered van which an old friend measured and drew in the 1920s. I expect the information is already known but to me the interest is that he actually saw it like that, rather than official drawings which can show what they intended it to look like.

Sorry its a bit dark, but this is a very old drawing in pencil on cartridge paper.

Mike
Attachments
Caledonian van JPR D3.jpg
Caledonian van JPR D3.jpg (356.79 KiB) Viewed 1497 times
Last edited by Mike 1 on Sun Jan 07, 2024 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John Duffy
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Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:02 pm

Re: D3 covered van

Post by John Duffy »

That is extremely interesting Mike. Good quality drawing make it so much easier to overlay the coloured lines that give instruction for laser cutting. This drawing will definitely feature in the near future. I can feel a covered van coming along.

Is it possible to get a larger scale copy?

John
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:12 pm

Re: D3 covered van

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

And there's a photograph of this van in the CRA Archive, ref G22, SLS entry 18279, photographed by JP Richards in Vulcan Foundry yard in 1924. The GA is in the Wagon Book, p.158.

Best

Mike
Mike 1
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: D3 covered van

Post by Mike 1 »

It was indeed Jim Richards who photographed and drew the van. He worked in the Drawing Office at Vulcan Foundry, where his father was the General Manager. He drew it in 7mm scale in anticipation of his own model, which he made a few decades later. He loaned his photographic prints to the HMRS, who took copy negs, and that is how they came to be in their collection today.

Mike - is it of interest and would it be worth me putting a few more up here?

John - I guess it could be enlarged to any scale you want? I scanned it at 600dpi and I have the original, so what would you like?

Mike
Mike 1
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: D67 covered van

Post by Mike 1 »

Here's another. Same source and same approximate date.

Mike
Attachments
Caledonian van JPR D67.jpg
Caledonian van JPR D67.jpg (411.76 KiB) Viewed 1425 times
Alan K
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Re: D3 covered van

Post by Alan K »

Thanks for posting that D67 drawing Mike. I'm particularly interested that it is fully fitted, as hadn't seen pictures of these vans with brake cylinders. But it also raises some questions. From what I've seen of relative brake cylinder sizes, I think that the cylinder shown is actually the vacuum one, as the Westinghouse one is usually smaller (and there's a note about checking if Westinghouse fitted only). But if that's the case, why aren't the 'swan neck' fittings not shown on the ends? I was also puzzled by the absence of the reservoir tank for the Westinghouse system (the pipes for which are shown) - but then noticed the note about checking position and size of same!
If the cylinder shown is indeed the vacuum one, the braking action would be that the cylinder shaft rises upwards, but the linkage doesn't look right to me as I can't see how the brake would be released when the shaft moves down!
It so happens that I've got a 51L Diagram 67 van ear-marked for attaching to my little rake of fitted vehicles which gets shunted into the Goods Station, so this drawing gives me confidence that I can make a decent authentic job of it.....!

Alan
Mike 1
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Re: D3 covered van

Post by Mike 1 »

I think you are right and that is the vacuum cylinder. In Mike's superb book on Caledonian wagons there is just one picture and he says they were dual fitted. Strangely, I can't see the vacuum pipe on that van either. As Mike says, Jim took a picture of the D3 van, but not of this one. His notes indicate that he saw it in August 1923 and the drew it out from his notes in 1952.

Mike
Mike 1
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: D3 covered van

Post by Mike 1 »

Another from the same source. Looks like he either saw in real life, or saw photographs of, wagons with slightly different details.

Mike
Attachments
JPR Caledonian wagon 58660.jpg
JPR Caledonian wagon 58660.jpg (331.89 KiB) Viewed 1315 times
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: D3 covered van

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

The photo is SLS entry 18344, taken in Dolgellau goods yard. I used it in the wagon Book, p.100 - it's a Diagram 22 wagon converted with self-contained buffers.

Best

Mike
Mike 1
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: D3 covered van

Post by Mike 1 »

Thanks Mike. Any idea about the sources for the variants: 59122, 23541, 7936? The note suggests that the last was taken from an F.Moore photograph, which suggests that having made his own dimensioned sketches from life (and in this case presumably his own photograph also) he did use information from elsewhere too.

Mike
Alan K
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Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Van and wagon drawings

Post by Alan K »

Further to the drawing of the dual fitted van 73804 above, just found that Jim Richards's photo is in the SLS catalogue - no. 18310. But it's incorrectly described as 73904! The 'Wagon Book' has 73804 listed as being part of Pickering's share of an order placed in 1917 for carrying explosives. Also shown in the book is a photo of 73814, one of the vans built for Clayton & Shuttleworth's share of the same order.
There is an intriguing contrast between the two which I suspect relates to how the big vacuum cylinder is accommodated - Pickering have evidently found the need to move the 'V' off-centre, but Clayton's design has been able to keep it in the standard position. I also note that neither van has got the tall 'swan's neck' fitting for the vacuum hose. Instead, the fitting seems to be at (and hangs down well below)buffer beam level.
I'm now in a dilemma about whether this van would qualify as pukka NPCS stock. The Pickering one doesn't carry the Ministry of Munitions cast plate: would it still be used for carrying explosives as late as 1923? The original 1917 order was for 300 vans - but surely post WW1 there would have been a fairly rapid reduction in demand for such traffic? Is it not feasible that a surfeit of such dual fitted vans could have ended up being incorporated into the Caley's NPCS stock?
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: Van and wagon drawings

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

The explosives vans weren't mentioned as NPCS in the 1921 coaching stock list (Carriages book p. 336 onwards). Both RYP and Clayton versions were recorded on the C&O in normal goods traffic in 1920.

Best

Mike
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Van and wagon drawings

Post by Alan K »

Thanks for your prompt response, Mike.
Actually I didn't expect that explosives vans would qualify as NPCS, but I thought that maybe some had been re-purposed in view of what I suspect would be a peacetime surplus - but maybe that wouldn't happen until LMS times....!
Alternatively, were any of the dual fitted vans built to orders G371/391 that were converted to insulated for frozen meat classed as NPCS?
I'm trying to justify having a dual-fitted D67 being used for perishable traffic in late CR times - but it doesn't have to be in NSCS livery (and maybe shouldn't be).

Alan
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: Van and wagon drawings

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

There's no firm information about which if the D67 vans were selected for conversion to carry meat, Alan, and they weren't designated as NPCS. We know the running numbers for the dual brake fitted vans built to orders G325 and 360 from the 1915 Working Timetable Appendix. Why not build D3 van 3046 (Wagon Book p. 171) instead?

Best

Mike
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Van and wagon drawings

Post by Alan K »

Thanks Mike. I've already earmarked an unmade D3 van as you've suggested. But it's piped - no clasp brakes, no vac. and Westinghouse cylinders or reservoir tanks: where's the fun in that! Besides, I've already started converting the D67 to dual fitted - it's just going to have to run in standard goods livery.....

Alan
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