Perth to Glasgow Route

How to do it, advice sought and offered.
Post Reply
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

Hello everyone,
My name is Kris & I am a video game developer for Train Simulator Classic & I am making a digital route of Perth to Glasgow in 1910 for the game. I run a company called "Caledonia Works" & it will be a pay ware project in which a portion of the profits will be donated to the CRA. I have also made around 18 CR locomotives so far (at the time of writing this & you can see them here https://caledoniaworks.com/london-midla ... y-company/) as CR is my favorite company & its in my blood. Both my Great Grandfather & his father before him worked for the Caley out of Perth from 1872 to 1923.
So I have decided to make the entire Caley mainline from Perth to Glasgow Buchanan street for the video game & hope to represent the line as historically accurate as I can, at least within the limitations of todays computers. So far, I have been working on making digital models of various CR track infrastructure, goods shed, signals, water towers & so on. Right now I have been modelling them to a generic prototype but will also model specific types as I need to for route accuracy.
My company team & I will be starting from Perth in a few months once we are able to lay track down in the game & obtain signal diagrams for Perth & its station. I have owned most of the CRA books already for the past 6 years but unfortunately I cannot seem to find much on signal diagrams for Perth & its station, would you be able to help with this?

Here are the stations we will be representing along the line.
Glasgow Buchanan St.
(St. Rollox Works)
Robroyston
Stepps Road
Garnkirk for Chryston
Gartcosh
(Gartcosh Junction)
Glenboig
Cumbernauld
Greenhill Lower
Larbert
(Alloa Junction)
Alloa Branch
Plean
Bannockburn
Stirling
Bridge of Allan
Dunblane
Kinbuck
Greenloaning
Blackford
Gleneagles
Auchterarder
Dunning
Forteviot
Forgandenny
Perth

I have also linked pictures of the generic CR goods shed that I have modelled so far. I don't think its based on any certain shed, more just a generic looking one & not going too crazy for detail as the video game has its limitations. I have loosely based it on the shed in the photo below.
Attachments
318969941_529174452509758_2086208556976293021_n.png
318969941_529174452509758_2086208556976293021_n.png (317.89 KiB) Viewed 3793 times
CR 20ft signa4.png
CR 20ft signa4.png (289.91 KiB) Viewed 3794 times
CR 20ft signal.png
CR 20ft signal.png (132.88 KiB) Viewed 3794 times
CR 20ft signa3.png
CR 20ft signa3.png (115.12 KiB) Viewed 3794 times
319603633_1128590641180017_3600576768461034800_n.png
319603633_1128590641180017_3600576768461034800_n.png (107.31 KiB) Viewed 3794 times
Graham R
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:44 am

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Graham R »

Hi Kris, nice to see that not only does Caley blood run in your veins, but that you have also joined the Association (notified in the members' section). There are many members who should be able to help with your interesting project, even thought most of them model with craft knives and soldering irons rather than keyboards and compilers.

If you have the "Signalling the Caledonian Railway" book, have a look at page 179, which gives a good overview of the layout at Perth. If you are modelling only the section south from the passenger station, you are only concerned with six of the twelve signalboxes:
1&2. Up Centre and Down Centre, which controlled movements through the station itself and the release crossovers of some bay platforms;
3. St Leonard's Bridge, just south of the station, which controlled the junction to Dundee and the south station throat;
4. Edinburgh Road Bridge, which controlled two junctions junctions: for the "North Goods" avoiding lines which bypassed the passenger station, for the "Dundee Goods" lines which similarly kept goods trains in that direction clear of the station throat, and for twin Up goods loops southwards. It also controlled the north entry to the loco running shed on the west side of the main line, and the entry to the workshops on the east side.
5. Friarton, controlling the south entry to the running shed, the Up goods loops and sidings, the harbour branch junction, and a road level crossing.
6. At the south end of Moncrieffe Tunnel, Hilton Junction, where the North British line diverged on the Up side.

I imagine you are not intending to model every siding and every signal. It is difficult to find exact details including lever numbers for the specific year 1910, but if you contact member "Loch Awe" via the Private Message function of the website, he should be able to help to get you at least the positions and function of the main running line signals at all these boxes, which is probably all you need. I am not sure if there is still a restriction that requires 5 posts before the PM function is available - if so you are snookered unless you contact Sinclair, the webmaster (or I suppose until you make further posts). The actual design of individual signals can be developed from the typical drawings in the signalling book and from photographs in the Association archive - I'd be pleased to help look these out for you on a case-by-case basis once you are ready to go to that level of detail. If you have not already asked Sinclair for access to the Scottish Line Societies' photo database, it is well worth doing so to find further details of the stations on your list.

Your goods shed digital model looks very nice. It may be too large for most for the stations on your list which would have had single or two-bay shed rather than the four-bay one you have drawn. I imagine you could produce a smaller version very easily.

best regards and good luck with the simulation, please keep us up to date with progress.
Graham Roberts
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

Hello Graham, I do have the CR Signal book & the diagram will definitely prove useful, however, I am still after diagrams of the North section as I will need to model the entirety of Perth. My intention is to model just about every signal & siding that are applicable for 1910. We have started making CR signals now, I have made a 20ft Semaphore & shunting signal, the rest will be made in time. They don't need to be absolutely perfect but they only need to fit the bill to give the impression that its a CR Signal. Jims Signal book is a huge blessing for reference so far.
I have also put the large generic goods shed in the game for the first time, painted in full CR livery. I know it probably wont fit anywhere on the route more likely but right now I am making generic CR goods shed just incase I cannot find photographic reference of a specific goods shed at on of the stations. Please let me know your thoughts :)

Work will begin shortly on the next generic goods shed.
Attachments
20230106151525_1.jpg
20230106151525_1.jpg (69.03 KiB) Viewed 3738 times
20230106151453_1.jpg
20230106151453_1.jpg (69.83 KiB) Viewed 3738 times
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

A look at the CR 20FT signal & the CR shunting signal. Made from drawings & illustrations from Jim Summers CR Signal book & an older edition of railway modeler.
Attachments
CR_20ft_signa3.png
CR_20ft_signa3.png (66.21 KiB) Viewed 3731 times
CR_20ft_signal.png
CR_20ft_signal.png (74.31 KiB) Viewed 3731 times
CR_20ft_signa2.png
CR_20ft_signa2.png (72.99 KiB) Viewed 3731 times
CR_20ft_signal (1).png
CR_20ft_signal (1).png (60.24 KiB) Viewed 3731 times
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

A few new things I have done.
- The shunting signal all textured & in game.

- The first CR station bench all textured & finished, I suppose blue is the correct colour for CR era after I have a search through some threads on this forum. I still have to do the other one which seems to be more stick like & simple.

- Another two generic CR Goods shed. Now that I have done the generic ones, I can start on the specific ones for the route itself. I know these shed are from somewhere on the Caley but cannot for the life of me remember where.

- The first CR Water column made from drawings in the True Line Archive.

- A CR Cattle Dock made from looking at photos of Jim Watts model.

- One of the first CR Staff Cottages made from photos of someone elses models on this forum. They need tweaking a bit more.
Attachments
CR Shed 2 (2).jpg
CR Shed 2 (2).jpg (65.92 KiB) Viewed 3699 times
CR Shed 1.jpg
CR Shed 1.jpg (70.42 KiB) Viewed 3699 times
CR Shed 1 (2).jpg
CR Shed 1 (2).jpg (73.06 KiB) Viewed 3699 times
CR Station Bench.jpg
CR Station Bench.jpg (65.27 KiB) Viewed 3699 times
CR Shunt signal.jpg
CR Shunt signal.jpg (81.88 KiB) Viewed 3699 times
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

Here are the Cattle Dock, Railway Cottage & Water Column
Attachments
CR Water column.jpg
CR Water column.jpg (93.19 KiB) Viewed 3699 times
CR Staff Cottages.jpg
CR Staff Cottages.jpg (67.66 KiB) Viewed 3699 times
CR Cattle dock.jpg
CR Cattle dock.jpg (68.48 KiB) Viewed 3699 times
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 889
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Looking good, but two comments on the signal and the cattle dock. The ground signals had a white post and balance weight and a red dropflap and the cattle dock would be white. They were regularly lime-washed as a requirement to limit cross infection, as were the interiors of cattle trucks.

My model was based on drawings of a very similar NER one, modified to try to match the one which appears in the background of a photo of Peebles. See plate 11.1 on p183 of the wagon book.

Jim W
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

Ah okay I shall make the changes. I wasn't too sure on the colour of the ground signals in CR days as I didn't see much info on that & only had two images of them to work from. I shall also make the cattle dock white as well.

Kris
Attachments
IMG_2775.png
IMG_2775.png (411.48 KiB) Viewed 3696 times
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

Here are the changes made to the CR Cattle dock & Ground signal. Let me know if that looks accurate for CR Era.
Attachments
CR Ground Signal.jpg
CR Ground Signal.jpg (56.46 KiB) Viewed 3694 times
CR Cattle Dock.jpg
CR Cattle Dock.jpg (71.87 KiB) Viewed 3694 times
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 889
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Ground signal looks OK to me (others may feel otherwise), but the cattle pens should be much cleaner. As I said they were lime-washed after every time they were used, so I think would always be a fairly bright white. Also the dock itself, usually a hard standing of some sort, would get splashed with the lime-wash. Something I've yet to do on my model.

Jim W
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

Here are the changes to the CR Cattle Dock, I've made it cleaner & whiter. I have also added a sort of limewash effect, although its difficult to get the look right on already white planks. What are your thoughts?
Attachments
20230107154323_1.jpg
20230107154323_1.jpg (81.15 KiB) Viewed 3688 times
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 889
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by jimwatt2mm »

That looks much more the part to my eye! Now all you need is splashes f limewash on the dock itself, especially under the planks of the pens.

Jim W
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

The team & myself are starting to lay track & we are in need of gradient profiles. Would anyone have any of the gradient profiles for the CR Mainline from Glasgow Buchanan Street to Perth? Also for the Alloa Branch & Perth Harbor? Or know where I may obtain them?

Here is a list of the stations on the line that we will need gradient profiles but also will need profiles for in-between them.

Glasgow Buchanan St.
(St. Rollox Works)
Robroyston
Stepps Road
Garnkirk for Chryston
Gartcosh
(Gartcosh Junction)
Glenboig
Cumbernauld
Greenhill Lower
Larbert
(Alloa Junction)
Alloa Branch
Plean
Bannockburn
Stirling
Bridge of Allan
Dunblane
Kinbuck
Greenloaning
Blackford
Gleneagles
Auchterarder
Dunning
Forteviot
Forgandenny
Perth
John Duffy
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:02 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by John Duffy »

True Line Number 36 is what you need.

John
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

That's perfect, just what we need. Thank you so much.
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

So these are the signaling diagrams I am in need of if anyone may be able to help? I've gone through Jim's Signaling book & the signaling diagram CD & gotten most of what I need but there are a few stragglers still missing. Ill be going through the True Line Archive tomorrow to try & find more.

The signaling diagrams I am in need of if anyone can help:
Glasgow Buchanan St.
St. Rollox Works
Robroyston
Stepps Road
Garnkirk for Chryston
Cumbernauld
Greenhill Lower
Larbert
Alloa Station
Stirling
Bridge of Allan
Dunblane
Greenloaning
Blackford
Crieff Junction
Auchterarder
Forteviot
Perth North
Mike 1
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Mike 1 »

Have you tried the Railway Signalling Society?

Mike
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

Aye, I already had a look through their catalogue & unfortunately they lack the stations we need diagrams for.

Kris
Mike 1
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Mike 1 »

When you say their catalogue, you mean their archives at Kenilworth? They may not have covered it in published books, but they have a huge amount of archives too. I'd drop them a line to check.

Mike
Loch Awe
Posts: 126
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:26 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Loch Awe »

Hi VL,

As discussed offline I can probably find you signalling diagrams for most of these sites but its an extensive list so will take me a little time.

R
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

Thank you so much, that would be fantastic. Ill also be looking through the photo archive in a few days as well to find anything of use.

Kris
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

Latest CR asset, an CR Loading Gauge arm. Made from drawings of the one that is at Bankfoot. Not sure if all over white is CR colour or not?
Attachments
20230110205724_1.jpg
20230110205724_1.jpg (61.94 KiB) Viewed 3532 times
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

I just remembered that I have a picture in my collection of CR 905 at Aberdean by Ken Nunn, what I remembered is that there are water coloumns in this photo in CR era. Would anyone happen to know what the bottom colour is of the column as I imagine the top is white?
Attachments
46757043045_675650885d_o.jpg
46757043045_675650885d_o.jpg (95.69 KiB) Viewed 3530 times
Victorian_Lad1899
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:09 pm

Re: Perth to Glasgow Route

Post by Victorian_Lad1899 »

Latest bit of work, making this CR 70ft turntable based on photographs of the one at Perth. The chairs of the track I had 3D scanned from a original pair owned by one of my friends in his private collection.
The rails on the photos of the turntable with the Dunalastair II & Cardean on it were before I replaced them with the correct chairs.
Attachments
Turntable6.png
Turntable6.png (105.87 KiB) Viewed 3478 times
Turntable5.png
Turntable5.png (131.2 KiB) Viewed 3478 times
Turntable4.png
Turntable4.png (139.74 KiB) Viewed 3478 times
Turntable1.png
Turntable1.png (144.89 KiB) Viewed 3478 times
Post Reply