Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

How to do it, advice sought and offered.
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BillAuld
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:21 pm

Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by BillAuld »

Hoping to exhibit Eaglesham in a 1923 setting. I intend to run a small number of vehicles in their LMS guise. To this end I am building some of the Decent Model kits and wish to finish them in an LMS livery. All the construction work is now finished and I need some details of where the lining sits in relation to the panels. The instructions I have give LMS numbers as do the Coaching Register, so I am presuming that they were repainted but don't know when. What I really need is a clear picture of of both the 6 wheel and 45' bogie coaches in their early LMS livery. First exhibition for this new rolling stock will be at Cupar in July.
Can anybody help with pictures.
Cheers
Bill Auld
caleyJim
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:10 pm

Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by caleyJim »

First thing to remember is that the Caley wasn't incorporated into the LMS until 1st July 1923 and I've always assumed repainting would not have occured before that that. So... by the end of 1923 the number of repaints would have been relatively small in my opinion.

LMS livery would have been fully lined crimson-lake sides with crimson lake ends, black ironwork and chassis. Roof would probably have been lead grey between the rainstips and black between rainstrips and cantrail. That said, roofs quickly weathered to an overall dirty grey.

Certainly on the bogie coaches the number would have appeared twice in the waist panel towards each end with LMS also in the waist panel as near the middle of the coach as its layout allowed. Large class designating 1 or 3 would appear on each passenger door.

Chapter and verse on LMS coach livery will be found in Vol 1 of LMS Standard Coaching stock by Jenkinson & Essery (Haynes, Yeovil 1991. ISBN 0 86093 450 0)

Jim :D
caleyJim
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:10 pm

Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by caleyJim »

While it is said that you should never model a model, here's how I did one of John's 45' (4mm scale) coaches a good number of years ago now. Conceivably the raised mouldings on the ends should be black BTW - that is certainly how the Midland would have done it pre-group; J&E do not comment on this point.

Jim :D
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MIKEWILLIAMS
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Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:12 pm

Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

Bill, on the evidence of the carriage trimmer's notebooks in the NRS (BR/CAL/5/61), although some re-numbering was done soon after the Grouping, the big change in livery and LMS re-numbering took place between 1926 and 1927 - see Carriage Book page 94.

Best

Mike
BillAuld
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:21 pm

Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by BillAuld »

Gents
Thanks for your comments. I was hoping to display the layout in the period at the back end of '23, like 31/12/23. Mainly 'cos it'll be centenary year of intro LMS. Could make it a few years later just to get the stock on. I'll be doing 3 x 45' coaches and had intended that they should look like Jim's, lovely work Jim. It is the 6 wheelers that will be the real problem, three of these also. Were the lower panels lined out the same as the upper or was it one single panel.
Another thought, were trains made up of mixed CR/LMS stock or would each train been comprised solely of one livery or the other.
The total LMS complement will be 3 x 45', 3 x 36' 6W, 1 x CCT, 1 x 6W fish van, 1 x 4W PBV, 1 x 10T brake and one 20T brake. These are the kits that I had going spare at the time.
I've got a 439, 944 and River class all in red and think that they look OK.
Any other comments, photos, suggestions from anybody more that welcome.
Cheers
Bill
Mike 1
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by Mike 1 »

If the CR followed what happened on the LNWR, which seems likely, then individual vehicles were scheduled for a repaint but set trains would be take in together. So, a branch set would all be repainted at the same time, but individual carriages would not. On the LNWR a "set" could be anything from two carriages upwards.

Mike
caleyJim
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:10 pm

Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by caleyJim »

Bill

Could you post a photo of one of the 6 wheelers please so that I can see what you mean?

I'd agree with Mike about repainting and add that mixed rakes would not be uncommon.

Jim :D
BillAuld
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:21 pm

Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by BillAuld »

Sorry, my phone takes pictures too large to get into the message box perhaps I could email them to you.
Bill
caleyJim
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:10 pm

Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by caleyJim »

Bill sent me these photos which I've taken the liberty of knocking down to size for the system. Bill commented "Images are of completed coach against one under construction, please excuse the paint coat, second coat due tomorrow. The other is against a Duncan Burton scratchbuilt model."

My initial thought is yes, the lower panels should be lined out but it seems excessive for such a lowly vehicle. I've put it out to the folk in the LMS Society for comment.

Jim :D
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caleyJim
Posts: 269
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Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by caleyJim »

caleyJim wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:24 pm Conceivably the raised mouldings on the ends should be black BTW - that is certainly how the Midland would have done it pre-group; J&E do not comment on this point.
Actually I'm not correct on that - J&E clearly state on P42 of said book that "beaded ends...usually had the end beading painted black without lining which was the old MR practice."

So either the model is wrong or I apply "usually" does not mean "always". (Prototype for Everything as the old RM series said.)

Jim :D
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

The end mouldings don't look black on this photo Jim. Taken in SRX carriage shop.

Best

Mike
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caleyJim
Posts: 269
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Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by caleyJim »

Good to know! Thank for that Mike. Any chance you could send me a better copy of the photo - just for reference?

Returning to Bill's original query on the 6 wheel stock. By the letter of the painting schedule the raised mouldings should be painted black and fully lined out in yellow and vermilion BUT
1 I feel that would give a very 'heavy' looking appearance to the coach
2 It would have taken a lot of time and expense for such a lowly coach.

I suggest (with no real evidence to back it up) that the old MR (and thus early LMS) NPCS livery might be more appropriate. Here the black was suppressed and the moulding was given a simple yellow line only. In essence this is not dissimilar to the CR livery in Bill's photo.

Jim :D
BillAuld
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:21 pm

Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by BillAuld »

Guys
With ModelRail being so close are any of you available for a chat on any of the days. I will be there and would appreciate getting together in order that I get these as correct as possible. Like the sound of Jim's suggestion of the simpler livery. I feel that for such out of date coaches as little as possible would have been spent on then.
Bill
caleyJim
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:10 pm

Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by caleyJim »

Bill

I intend being at MR only on the Friday but would be happy to meet that day if you are available.

Jim :D
BillAuld
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:21 pm

Re: Early LMS livery for 6 wheel coaches

Post by BillAuld »

Get back to you on that Jim. Might only be able to make Saturday.
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