Diagram 29 Milk Truck

How to do it, advice sought and offered.
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

Having now a dedicated bay for fitted traffic such as my new D11A CCT and perhaps some vans with oil bearings, I thought I might have a go at scratch-building a simple (!) van and came across the Diagram 29 in its 4 and 6 wheel versions - what simpler than slatted construction! At first I thought about the 4-wheeled version which was built on an old carriage frame - it would allow me to use my Ambis fret which I've been saving up - but that has 3 W-iron pairs, and the 6-wheeled version was built on new underframes. So I'm now focussed on that.
There is a photo of the 3t 4-wheeled version in the Wagon Book, but I haven't been able to find one of the 6t 6-wheeled version. But both versions are featured on the CRA Wagon CD.
I've decided to build the underframe first, as there are some potential complications - for example the middle axle has differing suspension from the other two, there is a McIntosh Patent Brake which apparently acts only on one wheel, and most of all I hadn't ever built a 6 wheeled wagon before....! Do I have to have a Cleminson arrangement to be able to cope with track curvature?
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The photo shows an assembly of most of the parts: 1mm thick x 4mm deep styrene for solebars, 0.75mm thick styrene for the platform. I originally used wood for the buffer beams but later changed to styrene as well. The solebars are flitched (the absence of crown plates is the give away). I used my usual method of drilling out the bolt-head positions and inserting styrene rod into the holes. After filing down level, a tiny amount of solvent applied rounds off each protusion to form a nice 'bolt-head' appearance. One of the solebars has been done, the other has just the holes drilled. I spent a lot of time getting the holes marked out and drilled. It pays dividends to do this as it looks much better when the simulated bolt heads line up with the ironwork that they're meant to be fixing -eg the W-iron legs and the 3 point position which replaces the crown plate fixing.
Bill Bedford sprung W-irons are my preferred method - these are the RCH 1907 version, but I regretted that later and had to make modifications.
There's a clue about what has been done about that middle axle at the top - but again more later!

Alan
Jim Summers
Posts: 1186
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:54 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Jim Summers »

Great to see you at the workbench again, Alan.

Six-wheel vehicles are difficult, in my experience, and I am looking forward to your account. I suspect many of us will have experiences, good and bad, to contribute.

Jim
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

Thanks for the encouragement Jim.
In case someone isn't familiar with the Bill Bedford W-irons and how they work, I took a picture of the diagram on the instruction leaflet. Sadly, Eileen's Emporium is no more, but hopefully there will be a successor soon who will market these. The main feature is that the bearings which take the pinpoint axles are fixed on a carrier which is separate from the W-iron itself but sprung from it on guitar string wire which means that each wheel has sprung suspension, which gives a very good ride for the vehicle concerned.
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Because there are 6 wheels and therefore 3 W-iron units to fit, care has to be taken when fitting them in place on the underframe. Mr Bedford has helpfully included a pair of holes fore and aft of each unit when folded up, and I threaded a length of straight wire through the holes, which ensures that all 3 units are precisely lined up.
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The solebars were fixed onto the floor using the folded-up W-iron as a spacer, so when it comes to fitting, the units are a snug fit.
The Caledonian seems to have had a fondness for 8ft 6inch wheelbases on its wagons, and this is no exception. I used a Brassmasters axle spacing unit as shown
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There is a longer unit, but unfortunately it doesn't give slots for two adjacent 8' 6" axle spacings at one time, so I had to set (ie with epoxy 'puddles' around the feet) one pair and then use the once hardened middle axle to fix the remaining axle.
For reasons of heightened dramatic licence, you will need to await the next episode to see what was done next with the axles.....!!

Alan
John Duffy
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:02 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by John Duffy »

The Bill Bedford springing units are another product that is no longer available. Many of the key supplies in our hobby are by the "cottage industry" nature of the trade extremely vulnerable.

John
lindsay_g
Posts: 487
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by lindsay_g »

Bedford Sprung Units

They were still supplied to Eileens by BB so I'm hopeful they will appear from BB direct or elsewhere - someone/somewhere owns the artwork for the etches which were very popular. They better or else I will have to be ultra careful with the few I have in stock!!! Nothing currently better on the market in my opinion for those that want to/need to go down the suspension route.

Lindsay

P.S.I feel I may have observations to make on the suspension method being employed on the Milk Truck depending on how it develops - but not necessarily negative observations you'll be pleased to know. Overall I feel I approve of the possible direction! About as cliff-hanging as Alan's last, what?
John Duffy
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:02 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by John Duffy »

There are rumours that the Scalefour Society were trying to secure them. Hopefully they have more success than I did with the liquidators.

John
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

The issue with the 6 wheel vehicle is that the middle axle can't move laterally to negotiate a curve because its position is fixed by the pinpoint axle. But I came across a method shown by Mark Tatlow in his Highland Miscellany blog which offers an elegant solution. Basically, he removes the pinpoint axle from the middle wheel set and substitutes a length of 2mm OD x 1mm ID brass tube and leaves it almost flush with the outer faces of the wheels. Then he inserts a 1mm diameter pinpoint axle into the tube, which locates into the bearings on either side.
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The axle is as shown an Exactoscale one with the plastic sleeve removed. The only source of these appears to be the Scalefour Society shop, which is where I bought them. The brass tube was from Hobby Holidays, reference N2.
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This photo shows the axle in position. When everything is in place, with the axle pinpoints inserted into the bearings, it looks no different from the other axles.
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The benefit of this arrangement is that the middle wheel set is able to effortlessly slide across to accommodate rail curvature. In this picture, the middle axle has been slid over fully to the bottom, and you can see the displacement compared to the other two at the top.
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And I can successfully propel this through all the curves on my layout - so no Cleminson for me!

Next I fitted the springs, and had lots of fun(not) with that! And in the process also found out why the RCH 1907 W-iron shape isn't the right one - but that's for another time....

Alan
lindsay_g
Posts: 487
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by lindsay_g »

That set up for allowing lateral movement of the centre axle seems a very neat and simple solution which I feel I'll have to try for the reasons that I'll set out below. I can't foresee any problems with it.

When I saw a wire through all 3 axles in a previous post I thought Alan was going to adopt the same set up that I employed on a 6 wheel Drummond coach built from a John Boyle Decent Models kit - see the picture below :

Coach chassis.jpg
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From the bottom, there is the "Cleminson" arrangement as designed by John which may work but I've never taken it to the stage of any build as I found it all a bit unwieldy. The middle chassis is again a Cleminson as supplied by Brassmasters which is a far neater arrangement and does work. However, I have 2 hang ups over this arrangement :
- As all 3 W irons are free to move there is the headache as to how you neatly attach the springs and axleboxes
- The arrangement takes up a lot of the under-chassis area leaving little room for adding detail such as brake reservoirs/associated gubbins and little room for adding lead weight.

So, I racked my brains and came up with the idea of a suspended centre axle (as in the top most chassis) which is retained in a U-shaped bracket attached to the coach chassis which keeps the axle central but does allow lateral and height movement, the wire being guitar string as used in sprung axleboxes/Continuous Springy Beams. I tested this arrangement on a length of flexitrack on which I kept reducing the radius. It stayed on the rails but the smaller the radius got then the less free-wheeling the arrangement was. In actual fact the radius I was reducing to was probably far tighter than might ever be experienced. The wheel base of the coach is longer than a milk truck so encountering the same tight radii may not even be an issue.

That suspended arrangement did get rid of the problem of space for detail and weight under the chassis but retained the problem of neatly attaching springs and axleboxes. 2 out of 3 ain't bad - or so I thought. The arrangement as employed by Alan gets rid of that problem as well, so I feel I have to give it a go. The only problem now is the continued availability of sprung W irons as provided by Bill Bedford but sold via Eileens which has now gone belly up. I'm sure it will only be a matter of time before that is resolved.

Lindsay
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

Reproducing the springs on the milk truck turned out to be a little more complicated than I bargained for! They are 5' springs, and the nearest I could get were from Caley Coaches. But the brackets which act as carriers and the heights that the springs were mounted on the carriers were different, so I had to do quite a bit of modification.
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At the top are the springs as supplied, and below that are the brackets removed and the one on the right modified to match the drawing. Finally at the bottom, the spring is soldered back on but with a shorter fixing on the bracket. This is the arrangement for the outer axles.
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These are the 4 outer axle springs ready for fitting. I soldered a little lug to the inner side of the top of each bracket, which fits in behind the solebar and hopefully gives a more robust fitting by giving more surface area for the epoxy than just relying on the underside of the solebar.
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I needed a jig to hold the parts in place while soldering. This is the centre axle spring with longer bracket (which is formed from brass strip) and spring position set higher to match drawing.
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This shows fixing the spring assemblies in position with epoxy onto the underframe. The little brackets which attach to the backs of the solebars can be seen clearly.
I later decided that I needed to file away some of the thickness of each spring as the ones shown on the drawing had less leaves (leafs?) than the castings.
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Here are all the springs fitted in position - but to reach that stage there was a further complication, which will need to wait until next time to explain....!
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

The further complication revealed itself when I was fitting the springs - when comparing with the drawing, the proportions weren't right! The height between axlebox centres and solebar (ie effectively ride height) was noticeably too great by a factor of about 1mm. With fixed (ie unsprung) w-irons I would have been able to fake it by moving the axlebox position, but with the Bedford sprung ones, the position of the axle pinpoint is fixed by the height of the bearing carrier and so not so easy. Using commercially available W-irons is something of a compromise, and clearly the RCH 1907 item doesn't really match up with the CR design....
But fortunately I discovered that I had another Bedford W-iron (BWF004 W-irons for outside bearings) which had bearing carriers which were shorter by just about the right amount! Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures of the difference in ride height, but this photo of the two bearing carriers illustrates
the effect.
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Then I found that wheel rims were close to rubbing on the base of the W-iron, forcing me to mill away the offending part!
The brakes proved to be less troublesome. There are no brake shoes on the middle axle wheels. I used clasp brake shoes from Comet/51L, but had to add an extra layer to represent the brake blocks.
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I couldn't find room for the attached pair, and epoxied them separately on the underside of the floor.
Here are the brakes fitted in place. You can also see where I took out part of the W-iron base to give clearance!
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Next to be done is the Patent Brake....
Mike 1
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Mike 1 »

I am really enjoying and learning from this thread, even though I model in a very different scale - thank you Alan.

Mike
MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 585
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:12 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

Alan - I'm guessing that your 1mm discrepancy was caused by trying to fit 3ft 6in wheels into wagon axleguards designed for 3ft diameter.

Best

Mike
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

Hi Mike1 - glad you enjoyed it: I'm flattered!

Mike Williams: I think it's more than that (although I agree it may explain why the 3'6" wheels may be a tight fit against the W-iron base!). This photo will illustrate it better:
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Superimposed on the 4mm/ft drawing from left to right are the Bedford RCS1907 W-iron (lined up against the bottom edge of the solebar), its bearing carrier lined up to match, and at the right, the bearing carrier from the BWF outside bearing W-iron. You can see clearly that the 1907 W-iron bearing center is well below the axlebox centre-line on the drawing, whereas the outside bearing W-iron's bearing carrier lines up nicely!
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

On to the McIntosh Patent Brake. I was a bit puzzled by this at first: Ronnie Cockburn's drawing (and the absence of a plan view) doesn't help in showing how the patent brake operates on one brake shoe of one wheel which already has clasp brakes fitted. Fortunately the ever helpful Mr Williams pointed me towards the GA for the Diagram 55 Fish Truck, which is Fig 10.4 in his book! This reveals that there are two levers involved on that one brake shoe, so that the patent brake can be applied even when the clasp brake is held off.
This photo shows the arrangement, with the 2 pivot points on the brake shoe in question
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The outside 'V' proved difficult: I couldn't find anything deep enough to fit the 12" deep solebar, and ended up having to cannibalise part of the CRA03 etch!
The arrangement for the operating arm is shown here:
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I've used the CRA03 arm, but found that I had to lengthen it a bit more than before (with the D46 wagon I did a while ago with the CRA03 etch) to make it fit. The part of the arm that is curved to fit over the axlebox has been lengthened.
The finished brake side is shown here prior to the shaft being fitted which connects to the lever on the other side (although I've now noticed that the little chain has been missed off!))
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And the arrangement for the other side is shown here:
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Next is the Westinghouse and Vacuum cylinder arrangement to be fitted to complete the automatic braking system, but that's for next time.
Thanks for watching!

Alan
Dave John
Posts: 232
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:42 am

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Dave John »

Very fine modelmaking as ever Alan.
Jim Summers
Posts: 1186
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:54 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Jim Summers »

Just seconding Dave John's comment.
The modelmaking is always first class, but taking the time to record it so thoroughly in word and text takes the modelmaking to a higher level.

Jim
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

Thanks for the kind comments - much appreciated.
These vehicles were dual fitted for Westinghouse and Vacuum braking, so would have an activation cylinder for each as well as reservoir tanks. I can see the 2 cylinders on the side elevation the drawing, but the arrangement must be different from the D11A CCT as the cylinders are shown as offset from the vehicle centreline on the end elevation. Once again, if only a plan view had been provided it would have been so much easier....! So I've had to make a guess as I haven't got access to the official GA, and think (thanks to some prompting from Mike Williams) that this arrangement looks feasible.
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There has to be a cross-shaft to act as a pivot for the cylinders to activate the brake rods, and the one which is being used for the patent brake arrangement seems to be most likely. There isn't a view of the other side, so my mounting of the 'V' on the inside of the solebar is a guess! But it's not too late if someone comes up with evidence to the contrary!
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The other part that I'm puzzled about is that Ronnie Cockburn's drawing doesn't show any reservoir tanks. I'm confident that he has faithfully followed the CR drawing, and the only thing I can think of is that unlike the D11A CCT, they have been mounted higher and are out of sight behind the solebar. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!
I've also just noticed from the photos that all the axleboxes on one side have 'CR' on them and those on the other side haven't! So I'll have to sort that....
So just some buffer beam items like safety chains, hooks and screw couplings needed to finish off the underframe, but next time....
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 889
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by jimwatt2mm »

I thought reservoir tanks were only on locomotives. I didn't realise some vehicles had them also. What decided whether or not they were fitted to a vehicle?

Jim W
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

An interesting question - unfortunately don't have the answer. I found reservoirs on 4 of the NPCS vehicles that had GA's in the Wagon Book, and even the photo of the Dia 15 that had been altered for fish traffic showed one. But I looked at the Caley Coaches NPCS items and none had castings for reservoirs..... Maybe it relates to whether a reservoir is needed to provide braking capability when not coupled to the loco.
caleyJim
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:10 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by caleyJim »

Been a while since the NPCS were first produced but I don't recall any reservoirs on the drawings used.

Jim :D
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

My rather crude understanding of how the Westinghouse system works is that the air pressure from the pump doesn't actually do the braking, but holds off all the brakes whilst the train is running. Braking action in fact takes place when the driver shuts off the pressure, allowing the brakes to apply on all wheels.
When the Westinghouse pipe is disconnected on uncoupling, the brakes will therefore automatically be applied. But if the vehicle is fitted with a reservoir, its pressure can be used to release the brakes to allow for example yard movement without needing to reconnect to a 'fitted' loco. With this flexibility for NPCS traffic, I'm surprised that reservoir tanks weren't universally fitted, but it appears that wasn't the case.....
Graham Tipple
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Graham Tipple »

It's a bit like a water tap, then, isn't it. The tap doesn't turn the water on, it keeps it off until you open the tap and allow the water to run as it 'naturally' would. Graham
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

I was intrigued enough to delve a little more into how the Westinghouse system worked, and found this summary in Wikipedia:

The plain automatic air brake
In 1872, George Westinghouse invented the automatic air brake by inventing the triple valve and by equipping each car with its own air cylinder. Air pressure is maintained in the auxiliary reservoirs and in the train pipe at all times when the brakes are not applied. An equilibrium of air pressure is maintained in the train pipe and in the auxiliary air cylinders.

To apply the brakes to all of the cars at about the same time, pressure is released from the train pipe, causing the triple valve on each car to apply the brakes. To release the brakes on each car, pressure is increased in the train pipe until an excess pressure above that of the pressure in each auxiliary cylinder is reached, which throws the triple valve so as to close the inlet to the brake cylinder and open the inlet to the auxiliary reservoir from the train pipe, thus allowing the equilibrium of the two pressures to be reached.

The quick action triple valve
Although the plain automatic air brake was a great improvement over the straight air brake, in an emergency the system still applied the brakes to the last cars in a train later than to the first cars in a train. To remedy that condition, George Westinghouse invented the quick action triple valve in 1887. This triple valve system was tested by George Westinghouse on the CB&Q West Burlington hill (Iowa) during 1887. It automatically vents air from the brake pipe locally on each car, which applies the brakes more quickly.


Note that each 'car' is equipped with its own cylinder! As the Caley used (and presumably paid royalties for using) Westinghouse's system, then all stock would have to have individual reservoir cylinders fitted. I'm aware of the term 'piped' which meant that some intermediate vehicles just passed the air through to the next one and were not braked, but I thought that these weren't used on a fully fitted passenger train or a fully fitted fast freight NPCS train. So why did some NPCS stock not have auxiliary cylinders?

Alan
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

I've up to now fitted AJ's to all my stock - which means that I don't fit 3 link couplings etc, but this time I thought that I should couple some of my NPCS in rakes. So it has to be the full monty, with screw couplings. I used Masokits ones, which turned out to be not as fiddly as I thought they'd be - although you need to be careful to avoid soldering everything up solid! They turned out quite nicely. But I didn't use the draw hooks supplied and instead used Exactoscale ones which are shaped much more like Caledonian draw hooks.
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For the safety chain links I found some links that I had made myself (using a former to get each link the same size) some time ago for another project which was abandoned. The hooks are from Ambis, as are the drawbar plates. Still to be fitted are the sprung buffer shanks, which will await painting, and the white metal Westinghouse and vacuum hoses.
So essentially that completes the underframe, and it's on with the slatted body, which I've not been looking forward to.
I made a little wooden jig to hold the side pieces in place while solvent is being applied to bond the various styrene strips together.
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I used short strips of suitable thickness as spacers as shown. The solvent I've been using is Deluxe Materials Plastic Magic, and because the styrene is relatively slender, I've been using the Pin Flow applicator to apply a thin flow of solvent into the joints. It seems to have worked quite well, but I'm still not quite sure about the strength of some of the joints where there is relatively small surface area. Time will tell!
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This is the first side all but complete, with holes drilled for the rod sections which represent the bolts.
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Metal strips and hinges next
Alan K
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: Diagram 29 Milk Truck

Post by Alan K »

Well, as it turned out there are still no metal strips and hinges!
Instead I've been struggling with getting decent adhesion between the slatted construction parts, with joints coming apart too easily when handling. I'm not so sure about the Plastic Magic solvent - it is less fierce than MEK, but I've been nervous about using the latter because of the delicate nature of the slats, although it would give a better bond. It doesn't help that the surface area of some of the joints is small - look at the corner post at the right of the panel in this picture. I've lost count of the number of times I had to re-do these due to handling!
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Once the ends are fixed in place, the whole thing is more rigid. But it's still all too easy to push a slat off from behind a vertical post.
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The addition of a horizontal panel (in black here) increases the rigidity.
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This photo shows the latest stage, with a ridge to support the roof, Tony Brenchley style.
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The next stage is to form the roof panel. Armed with a styrene profile of the desired roof curvature, I've been scouring the house and garage to find the right diameter for a former! And I've found just the thing - but it's a paint tin and still contains a small amount of paint which needs to be transferred, and I need another empty can for that!
But things are getting closer to completion.....
Last edited by Alan K on Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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