Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

The day to day working of the Caledonian Railway Company, including its constituents and successors.
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dunalastairv
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Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by dunalastairv »

They say no book is ever published without a mistake and whilst I might have hoped mine would evade this rule, the sheer size of the work and number of pictures was inevitably going to stack the odds. And so it has proved! John Paton has made the following comments and corrections and it's only fair that I should publish them for the sake of accuracy. Perhaps this thread would be the best place to record all the errors as they emerge. I am very grateful to John for pointing out the following and happy that the record should be set straight here.

Plate 311. The corrugated iron building at Strathyre did in fact survive until the line closed, and was not replaced as I suggested. It survived a fire circa 1947, and had various additions made to it after the photograph was taken, but it was still there when the demolition gangs moved in.

Plate 334. The carriages on the left of this view of Connel Ferry have come from the Ballachulish Branch while the up main platform is that on the right, with luggage and passengers waiting to board a train for Glasgow.

Plate 336. The soldiers are standing on the down platform at Carluke, not the up, so it is most likely they are heading to the Highlands for further training, rather than starting their journey to the front. That said, the fate which ultimately awaited them would have been no different.

Plate 374. This is not Stirling Station as I state but in fact Dalmally, on the C. & O., and this can be proved by study of the building which still stands there today.

Finally, John suggests that the 'Dunalastair' and two coaches on Plate 174, is probably leaving Dunblane and provides photographic evidence to back this up.

Michael Dunn.
John Paton
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by John Paton »

Michael,

Your use of the word 'mistake' is too strong. You did the best you could with the information available, and as with the forum and the True Line, it is a process of information sharing and learning from each other. The book is very good and I don't consider that it contains mistakes.

John
dunalastairv
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by dunalastairv »

John,

That's very kind of you; perhaps we should call them slips. Would you post that picture of Dunblane for me? The three-arm signal seems to be the clincher for the location and others might be interested in this mystery being solved, especially as a copy of the photograph is in the C.R.A. archive.

Michael.
John Paton
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by John Paton »

My thinking on plate 174 (see attachment) is that the train could be heading out of Dunblane in the Callander direction, after line doubling in the early 20th Century. The junction signals would be those facing the photographer in the right distance, with the main line crossing the photo out of sight in the background. The signals in the foreground of the attached photo 'Dunblane 2' could be those in the right distance on plate 174. The shape of the building behind seems to correspond. See also my attached annotated map.
Attachments
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Dunblane 2.jpg
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Caledonian Railway Miscellany plate 174.jpg
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Mike 1
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by Mike 1 »

Philip Millard published a small booklet of "changes" to his WCJS book, entitled "adenda and corrigenda", which seems to sum it up pretty well.

Mike
Bill_Gensheet
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by Bill_Gensheet »

Might the article by David Stirling in TTL 39 (page 8) covering Callander stock diagrams in 1914 shed any light ?

There are no 2 coach trains listed, although the 1:30 departure from Dunblane would be an obvious candidate on time of day and load.

Two assumptions, that the image is pre-1914 and that timetables did not change much year to year at least 1902 - 1914.
I'd guess 1918 - 23 would likely differ.

edit:

Indeed, no 1:30 Dunblane in the 1920 Bradshaw scanned by 'timetableworld'.
Last edited by Bill_Gensheet on Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BrianSmith
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by BrianSmith »

‘Caledonian Railway Miscellany’ is a great book that brings together photos that might not of always made it to publication, but it does have some mistakes.
The mistake I noticed was Plate 236 on page 204, the leading coach is an ex WCJS in Caledonian Railway livery with vermilion end, cascaded in 1903, many years before this picture was taken. This photo was published previously in the ‘A Register of West Coast Joint Stock’ (p108) and ‘Caledonian Railway Carriages’ (p194) both described it correctly as a former Lavatory Luggage Composite converted to a Brake Lavatory Composite by incorporating the end compartment into the luggage space and adding end windows, side lamps and hand brake column.

Brian Smith.
caleyJim
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by caleyJim »

Yes - you will always get mistakes in books and/or new information will come to light but what a delight this book is. A real triumph on which Michael is to be congratulated. Plates 379 and 380 particularly tickled my fancy as I had just returned from a week spent in Perthshire at Cardean Mill. As the name implies it is on what was the Cardean Estate. While in addition to the mill, one half of which is available as a holiday let, there is a row of what would have been estate cottages but there is sadly almost nothing left of Cardean House itself. I am told the house was demolished by explosives and certainly all that is to be found in the woods are a couple of square yards of tile flooring and some shaped stones which were probably part of the main door once. I'm told more can be seen in the winter when all the plant life has died back but it can't be much.

A wonderfully peaceful spot for a holiday though.

Jim :D
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Jim Summers
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by Jim Summers »

Manage to get any holiday modelling done, though, Jim?

JimS
dunalastairv
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by dunalastairv »

Caley Jim, many thanks for your kind words - it matters a great deal what my peers think and your comments are much appreciated. I was fascinated to hear what you'd discovered about Cardean House: when doing my research, I did find two good quality photographs of the outside on the Internet, and also reference to the fact that details such as rooms, fireplaces and stairs were professionally photographed just before the demolition began in 1953. It must really have been quite a house and I do wonder why it had to go. With Dunalastair also a total ruin, those two important Caledonian names have extra poignancy.
Mike 1
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by Mike 1 »

1953 was not long after the war. I suspect it didn't HAVE to go, but the world had changed and aristocracy no longer had the funds to maintain the fabric or the staff as such places, plus their town house, somewhere abroad ..... Also, less people were willing to be in domestic service earning a low wage subsidised by free accommodation and food. Hundred of grand houses around the country went at that time. Very sad but I guess there was no alternative.

Mike
caleyJim
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by caleyJim »

I was told by the folk who own the mill that the Cardean Estate was sold as a lot together with another nearby estate. (Was told its name but can't recall it right now). Apparently the new owners decided Cardean House needed too much work done and chose to live in the house of the other estate. This, together with the property taxes of the day, led to Cardean House being demolished.

Jim :D
Graham R
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by Graham R »

I agree that Michael's book is one to be treasured, not only for the superb captions but also for the very high quality of photo reproduction. Very often, photo captions can disappoint when an author makes lazy assumptions or offers pedestrian descriptions. In contrast, the Miscellany captions are a pleasure to read and I learned something new from almost every one of them. Many must have taken hours of careful research. I think it is a remarkable book.

In a spirit therefore of contribution, certainly not criticism, here are reactions to one or two of the photos.

The photo of Carluke referred to at the start of the thread (plate 366) is also held by Carluke Historical Association as a lantern slide, which they
were kind enough to send the CRA via Jim Summers along with other railway-related images. They identified the troops as members of 'D' Company, 8th Battalion Highland Light Infantry (Territorials), awaiting the 11a.m. troop train on Wednesday 5 August 1914, just three weeks after war was declared.

The nice photo of Coatbridge Central in plate 106 brings to mind a trip there with fellow 2mm Scale Association members in May 2018. (Join the 2mmSA and see the world ...) The branch canal bridge in the photo is still there, and the infilled canal is a pedestrian path leading towards a small canal section opposite Summerlee museum containing a narrow boat. Google Earth can show this, with a bit of persuasion. Just off scene to the left of plate 106 is the railway bridge across the infilled canal, which still has a footbridge like the one in the book.
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The Caley station building has lost the entrance canopy shown in the book, revealing the arched doorways.
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In plate 293, the subsidiary signal is identified in the 1914 Aberdeen North signalbox diagram as a "wrong-line shunt signal" from platform 6 (that is, shunt to the Up Kittybrewster line: the main signal above is the Down Kittybrewster line starting signal). I believe cross-arm signals were generally used for wrong-line moves, not backing signals. The 1914 diagram did identify backing signals but they were on the gantry seen in the distance above the Down, leftmost, line, and hidden in the photo by the Union Street bridge arch. They were conventional short-arm semaphores for shunts returning from the Down line back into the station - the three leftmost dolls in this view taken from the Union Street bridge looking north.
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I have a copy of plate 247, acquired from eBay, where it was described as being at Bridge of Dun rather than the Edzell branch. The print itself does not bear this information but it does reveal that it is Lens of Sutton image 24864, so perhaps their list gives more information.

Hope that is of interest and thanks again for such an enjoyable book which I am sure I will return to again and again.

regards
Graham Roberts
John Paton
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by John Paton »

Are you sure you mean 247, Graham? I've got that as the cottage near Kinfauns.

John
Graham R
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by Graham R »

Oops. Should be 347. Thanks John!
dunalastairv
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by dunalastairv »

Good evening, Graham, firstly many thanks for your kind remarks, and secondly, many thanks for your photographs and amplifications. When this thread falls silent I will probably try to piece together a full errors and omissions list which might perhaps be worth putting in TTL? (Editor permitting.)

One subject that will obviously be there is the Carluke picture and I have a query for you regarding the date of this. You say it was taken on Wednesday, August 5th. 1914, 'just three weeks after war was declared' but of course WWI began the day before, on August 4th. Is the 5th. date correct or should one add 21 days?

Kindest regards, Michael.
Graham R
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by Graham R »

Hi Michael, yes you are quite right as far as the British declaration of war was concerned. The Austro-Hungarian declaration of war against Serbia was in late July. It must have all seemed a long way from Carluke. The date in the notes from the Carluke Historical Society for the photo was 5 August.
Graham
dunalastairv
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by dunalastairv »

Thanks Graham, that really is fascinating: it means plans for the War were so well advanced that the government could despatch troops the very next day after the declaration, and it shows how organised the armed forces were in those days. I find it impossible to believe we could be so speedy today were the need to arise, and it adds much interest to the photograph itself, especially as we now know which regiment the troops belonged to. It also means the authorities could contact the Caley and in just a few hours the Railway would provide a special train for them. Imagine that now!
John Lindsay
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by John Lindsay »

Not an error in the book, but some additional information on one photo.

I have done a little background investigation into the picture of an unidentified Jumbo at Biggar station on page 80 of the book. My strong suspicion is that it is number 414.

You can see the digit 4 clearly on the buffer beam and what looks like the top of a 1. The loco still has its original boiler with safety valves on the dome and it is coupled to a Stroudley tender. Batch Y23 Jumbos were noted as being coupled to Stroudley tenders in H J C Cornwell's books on Caley locos. They were fitted with air brakes and painted blue.

The reason I suspect this particular engine of that batch is that Peter Marshall, in his book "Peebles Railways", specifically mentions 414 as being a regular locomotive on the branch in CR days. The loco was not rebuilt until 1910 (in which form it can be seen on page 35 of "Caledonian Cavalcade"). This lines up with my suspected date of the photograph which may well have been taken during the time of the Borders Show at Peebles in 1906.

Cheers
John
jimwatt2mm
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by jimwatt2mm »

I have only now got round to going through this excellent book and can only echo the praise of others.

Like others, some additional information, specifically on plate 22 of the dia.43 wagon. In the early 1980's I was sent a photograph fellow 2MMSA member, the late Geoff Balfour, had taken on a visit to the army depot at Shoeburyness. It was of the bogie of a wagon which he had found there with 'CR' on the axleboxes, army No. 80028 and was being used to transport guns to the proving range. I was able to identify it for him as one of these wagons and we were able to establish that 4 of them had been requisitioned by the army for use in armoured trains, as noted by Mike Williams in his book. The article which Mike refers to, written by Geoff, in the HMRS Journal, Vol. 11 No. 8 p. 231, contains not only the GA for these, but also a sketch of how they were modified as gun trucks. Geoff, who published a book on armoured trains, pointed out the significance of the wagon and at that time it was earmarked as historical and I understand it was subsequently restored to its wartime condition and put on display at the army transport museum. That closed in 2003 and I have no knowledge of the subsequent fate of the wagon.

Jim W
Alisdair
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by Alisdair »

It's at the SRPS at Bo'ness.
http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10150.htm
Alisdair
jimwatt2mm
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Thanks, Alisdair. Something in the back of my mind was suggesting that, but I wasn't sure. Any plans to restore it to 'as built' condition?

Jim W
Alisdair
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by Alisdair »

Dunno, but our Chairman might?
Alisdair
Jim Summers
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by Jim Summers »

Since Alisdair has dragged me into this, all I can say is that I am not aware of any action planned for this vehicle at the moment.
The last Caley wagon dealt with (cosmetically) at the SRPS was no.40. It highlights how the Caley did not use the common "Empty to . . . " inscription for the holding point of specially-controlled wagons, but used the destination plus "when empty". It is a complicated vehicle and well worth examining when you are next at Bo'ness.
And that's a Caley gunpowder wagon next to it.

Jim
CR 40 on 17.03.22 reduced .jpg
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dunalastairv
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Re: Mistakes in "Caledonian Railway Miscellany".

Post by dunalastairv »

A few more errors and amplifications have come to light, so there are one or two paragraphs to add to this thread. I am particularly grateful to Angus McIntosh, expert on all things Carstairs Junction, who has put me right on several matters and points out the following:-

Plate 4. This view is looking west, towards Glasgow, not south as I state.

Plate 58. 2-2-2, No. 84. Although listed as Carlisle in the C.R.A. Archive, this picture was in fact taken at Carstairs, with the embankment to the north of the station as the backdrop. The photographer was Archibald Rogers, 1872 - 1917, and the location was also confirmed by Montague Smith.

Plate 101. This photograph was taken during the demolition of the old Carstairs station building in April 1913, as can be proved by looking at the wall remains on plate 98. Another photograph of No. 348 exists, taken at the same time, showing this in more detail. It might more easily explain the presence of the young man standing in front of No. 348 in my photograph.

Page 276. Text for the Farquhar Cameron Story - a good old tired author error: Ach-na-Cloich is of course EAST of Glencruitten, not west as I state.

And fortunately, that's it for the present. Thanks to everyone for their comments.
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